Visible Conversations: Kristin Rogers Brown & Ovidio Francisco Juan

Ovidio Francisco Juan is a freelance graphic designer, and winner of the 2018 Visible Design Equity Tournament for Right To Health. Ovidio's interest in graphic design was inspired by a trip to his parent's home country of Guatemala, where he observed the important roles color and symbolism play in the language of daily life in Akateko culture.

Kristin Rogers Brown is a creative director and problem-solver and was formerly Bitch Media's Art Director (2010-2018), and served as vice president of AIGA Portland (American Institute of Graphic Arts). Kristin has worked with a range of sustainable design and community initiatives and is currently the Graphic Design department head at PNCA.

Kristin and Ovidio talk about their influences in their design careers and how their upbringings have molded their design thinking.

Introductions

Kristin: I’m Kristin Rogers Brown, and lead the graphic design department at PNCA. I would say my superpower is probably brand design—but, I’ve been working in publication and web, together, for a long time. My first love is probably print design, but it’s a more complete, complex system all in concert that I really like. The feeling that you can create with design, that’s probably what I’m most interested in.

Ovidio: I started my lecture in graphic design with print design, so I can relate, and it was really fun. Just the texture of the paper, glossy, or just designing anything, or getting the vellum paper so it’s a transparency…

Kristin: Oh yeah, and the layers you can have with materials, which is actually really interesting because it kind of moves into interaction design if you’re thinking about this thing as an artifact, and how can you…

Ovidio: the user experience…

Kristin: Exactly!

Ovidio: And then you kind of bring that into web design. There are so many paths that can connect to.

Kristin: Yeah, and I wouldn’t want to be rooted in any one thing. At least in the place that I’m at.

Ovidio: Yeah, me neither. I want to learn, and I’ve learned so much. I don’t want to just specifically focus on one thing. I want to be able to do different things too.

Kristin: And, you talked a little bit about what you do, but I guess we should probably have you state your name. (laughs) 

Ovidio: I’m Ovidio Francisco Juan. I’m currently working right now as a freelancer, mostly in Vancouver, Washington, but I’m also a full time student at Portland State University and I’m studying graphic design. 

What am I stewing on at the moment? 

Ovidio: At the moment, I’m making a lot of connections, especially with Instrument right now. I’m getting to know a lot of people that work there, and I also have some connections at Swift, and some other freelancers. So, just making sure that people at least know who I am or have heard of me, while I’m still in school, so once I get out, if I decide to look for an agency job, I have some connections versus not really knowing who’s out there at the moment.

Kristin: What am I stewing on at the moment? Oof. So many things. I’m really interested in what team dynamics look like in an education setting. The class I’m working on right how is Center for Design, and that’s a class where we operate like a real working studio but within the context of the college. We’re currently using a similar model and process to what Visible uses to do (usually brand-related) work for values-driven organizations that need help. It’s demonstrating the power of design to these clients, and hooking students up with connections to people who are hungry for that power, and then teaching both sides through doing, together, the possibilities and how that work can transform. I’m looking at how the different teams of students come together, but also how do my teams of faculty within the department complement each other, and support me, and us. I mean it’s not about me, but just to create the right chemistry for students. 

Ovidio: That’s great, and it’s so helpful! We had one class at PSU that we worked rebranding something, and even though only one of us was chosen, it was still a great experience for us to think about it, meet with clients, and just do all of that. It was a great experience.

“I’m connecting with them and trying to see what design means to them in their culture so that I don’t limit myself, and I can think broader”

What’s fascinating, inspiring, angering, or comforting to you right now?

Kristin: Oh my god, so many things.

Ovidio: I can start with the fascinating part!

Kristin: Go for it! 

Ovidio: Well I’ve been thinking, just being in the car right now, especially as a student, you start thinking and looking at every design, and once you get out of school you still continue to do it. Like every sign, every billboard that’s out there, you look at it and so that’s fascinating… just like, oh, they chose that typeface, oh they went with that, or that’s an interesting way they advertised that product. Everything right now is fascinating. Every sign, every design, is fascinating. How about you?

Kristin: Oh gosh, so many things are fascinating to me. I think I’ve kind of been coming back to this idea I’ve been thinking about for probably the past ten years, which is the idea of trust in work, and what happens when you trust someone before it’s been earned. I’m finding that most people--and I’m being very romantic about this--live up to that trust, and so I’m experimenting with that in the teams that I work with. And more times than not, I’m proven right. It’s kind of allowing yourself that vulnerability to give a little bit, especially as I get more senior in my design career and my teaching career, seeing how that trust and expectation comes back. 

Ovidio: That’s a good learning process too…

Kristin: I think so, I hope so. I’m trying to be open about this not working too, but I really believe in it. And to really double down on what you believe like that, even if it’s scary, is endlessly fascinating to me, and rewarding.

Ovidio: And so inspiring…what’s inspiring to me right now is, because PSU is starting to get a little more diverse with different design students, I’m connecting with them and trying to see what design means to them in their culture so that I don’t limit myself, and I can think broader and just be like, ok, I know this is how Japanese design or Korean—I have a lot of different friends from different diverse backgrounds, so that’s all fascinating—hearing their part, seeing why they design something that way versus why I design something that way, and just connecting that back to our backgrounds and see how that inspired them.

Kristin: That makes me think of something related which I find inspiring too. My students have such—I think compared to when I started design—the way that they talk about identity is so much more sophisticated than when I was in school. Whether it’s gender or sexuality or background, how much of their story they’re putting on the table. And taking those risks, and how earnest they are about it is…its goals. It’s really hard to do, and I just think the complexity of the things we’re all processing in this day and age is amazing, and it just layers on folks who have been more marginalized. BUT finding that you can use the things that make you different to make you powerful—not to dominate, but to empathize and relate—and still keep your point of view in your work for the client. It’s not just about you, but using that identity in your process and your work for something else is amazing.

Ovidio: Angering—what’s angering me right now? It’s a hard one…

Kristin: I could say something! I’m working on getting in better touch with my anger, lately. Gosh, this is hard. I think we’re taught, especially if you’re a person of color or a woman or if you’re not cis (and I am a cis bi woman so I have a lot of privilege here), but, we’re taught not to get angry. I think women are taught not to get angry. I hear this reflected from my students who are struggling right now, people of color. Being raised to be nice and to please people as a designer, even, there’s so much power in actually letting yourself get angry at something. And I don’t feel like I’m good at it yet. I thrive on seeing the good in things, and so letting myself get pissed off about something is really hard. And I don’t know if that actually makes me angry, but I get the most angry about injustices. There’s like a thousand things to be super fucking pissed off about right now in this world, many of them political. But I get the most angry on behalf of other people because I feel a little bit like I can’t do it for myself. And also just because I want to help. I’m a person that wants to help, so when I can’t, it feels impossible. This is not the best answer, or the most articulate answer…

Ovidio: It’s hard to answer an anger question! I’m sort of like you too—it takes more to get angry because if I get angry, I just let it go. Because it’s something that’s passing right now, it’s something that’s going to eventually figure itself out, so I let the anger go. Something that’s, well it’s not bothering me, it’s not driving anger into me, but it’s more like I see groups for diversity, and I see groups where more white people go to, and I want to find a group where it’s more aimed for diversity and white. So instead of just splitting up the diversity to one side where they can feel safe and comfortable, I want to bring in people of color and white people so they can learn from each other too, not just white folks learning about diversity and diversity learning about white culture, and kind of destroy the invisible barrier that I feel like is building up again. 

Kristin: That’s interesting to hear, how you feel about that. I’m from Chicago and where I grew up, it was so much more diverse than in Portland, where I live now. Even as a white person, I think that it affects my life negatively, for sure. It’s less perspectives weighing in. I feel more cautious about engaging in some dialogues you’re talking about and dominating a space…and like, that’s fine, that’s my lot and I can figure out ways to deal with my nervousness…but I do see the value in having people tell me no, I just want this space where I feel safe, for me. I don’t want people to feel like they can’t, if they’re angry, say something to me and take the space they need.

Ovidio: Yeah, it’s okay to have a safe spot. But you have to kind of have that uncomfortable feeling so that you can learn from it too, and become comfortable. Get comfortable from the uncomfortable. 

Kristin: Do you find it hard to find those places?

Ovidio: Sort of. In Portland, a lot of events, it either a lot of white people and not a lot of people of color, then if I go to a design event for people of color, then it’s mostly all people and there’s no white people there. So I’m like, where is this in-between spot that I wish I could be a part of and teach other people, but then also learn form them as well.

Kristin: What do you think we could do to make that better?

Ovidio: I’ve been thinking about it, but I’m still thinking about an answer for that. There has to be a way, or maybe there’s something out there that I just haven’t heard of yet. What about you, what do you think about it?

Kristin: Oh gosh…I mean, I don’t know. I think I always am really grateful when I see a meet-up or something saying this is specifically for people of color and allies. I think maybe being more overt with intent is a good thing, but then by the same extent, that should just be how we live…

Ovidio: Yeah, I feel like there’s an invisible barrier, and that we need to just get rid of it. 

Kristin: Yeah, I don’t know if I’m maybe one of the people who’s being too careful about that, and not going into spaces where I’m not sure if I’m welcome. I’m probably a little bit more of a person who engages when it’s ok, just because I’m a teacher and I feel like I’m the one who has to kind of throw myself at getting involved. I’m okay with taking risks when I can, so why not. But I want to push myself to do it more. I mean, there’s the individual level of work that you can do by participating, and then there’s the question, when is the right time for me to try to create a space? I’m not sure yet.

Ovidio: That’s a question I ask myself—I’m a student, how much can I do? Having that limitation I feel like I have sometimes, being a student and not being fully graduated yet. But already thinking about it is really good, so…

Kristin: Yeah, totally. And, probably, that’s a lifelong question to ask yourself. It’s just going to change as time goes on. The other day I realized that oh, in this room, I am the person with the most power. And I’m like, that is bananas to me, because I feel sometimes really small, but I think sometimes assuming that you have the power, it comes with you too. So, maybe you’re not just a student. 

Ovidio: (laughs) True, yeah. 

Kristin: But also, you have to pick your battles. It’s not like you have to do all the work.

Ovidio: Yeah, that, and creating a team that has your back is always helpful.

Kristin: That’s true.



“What’s comforting to me? I feel, weirdly, like taking risks and then finding out it’s okay is comforting”

What’s comforting you right now?

Kristin: I feel like we’re almost talking about that…what’s comforting to me? I feel, weirdly, like taking risks and then finding out it’s okay is comforting. Comfort to me isn’t really just safety, and actually, I don’t know know if I’m interested in being comfortable or comforted right now. I mean I want it, but I think that’s maybe not the best place for me right now. I’d rather be challenged than comforted. There’s no shame in finding things comforting—I guess being really thoughtful and mindful about something, just trying to be more present in every interaction and every moment, that is comforting.

Ovidio: For me, it’s just comfortable thinking that school is almost over. That’s kind of what’s comfortable right now. And as you get into more of the higher levels in design class, you look back on your work, like we were talking about and it’s like, okay, I designed that, and I feel comfortable that I designed that, but now I know that I can improve it and I know there are different ways to improve it. 

Kristin: I think it’s rare to hear someone say, “I’m about to graduate and that feels comforting.”

Ovidio: Really?

Kristin: Yeah, I’m impressed by that. Most of my students, well, I don’t want to speak for them, but many students would say that’s terrifying. But I love that you say that and I can totally see what you mean. It’s like you’ve gathered so much information already, and you’re better and better. That’s really exciting.

Ovidio: I always recommend to my other classmates—network, go to events, learn, and it’s ok to make mistakes because that’s the learning process.

Kristin: Actually, that is comforting. Learning how to mistakes. Very comforting, after awhile.

Where are you currently using a tool for activism or action for change?

Kristin: That’s a hard question. I want to say—like on a good day—I want to say everywhere. I feel like I have a responsibility as a designer at this point, with the experience that I have, to try to make every project I work on better, even if it’s not an activist project. I mean, whether it’s materials choices and making the most socially and environmentally responsible decisions I can, or—like I was talking about my class before—demonstrating what design can do for organizations that really really need it. And you mentioned earlier, teaching people the value of deep branding work; so being able to teach those organizations that need it most. They know they want it, but let them feel what that experience really is. Like yes, you do want it, and this is how it plays out. It’s really massive, you know. And to be able to lead students through that process and teach them on the other side of school too; those kind of partnerships, building them, just even if it’s for a semester, that feels like activist work to me. 

Ovidio:  For me, I’m just really more into my thesis class right now. This project is related to a Mexican traditional food called mole. And so, we have to come up with projects or activities for surveys for the class, and I’m questioning my classmates. One of my surveys was how much do you know about Latinx food, what do you wish you knew about Latinx food. So then I’m already kind of connecting and trying to think about it—it’s a different country, a different culture from what they’re used to. Another activity we did was I created a little map of the Central American region, and they had the key of words and they had to write down where Mexico was located, or Cuba, or Guatemala. I had them work individually, and then as a group, and then as the whole class, so they can see that working together with different backgrounds, you can find the answers. Even though like you’re saying, right now it’s just one term and one class, it’s a start. 

Kristin: Yeah, and design is a practice. So practicing it now, you’re just getting better and better at that too. It’s good. It’s cool that you’re doing something like that for your thesis. I’m always fascinated by thesis projects. That’s one of the things that’s super inspiring to me, seeing how intense what my students propose is, and how projects change as you gather information. It’s amazing at the end of it, you’re like, oh I didn’t do this one thing I meant to do, but I did this whole other thing.

Ovidio: Yeah, and you find out so much along the way too.

How do you think the political climate is aesthetically influencing design right now? 

Kristin: Wow, that’s interesting.

Ovidio: I don’t know if I have an answer…

Kristin: I don’t know if I have an answer to that one either. I feel like I have some ideas around what it’s doing to the climate around design. I feel like people are a little off balance and for me, my students especially, people who are really thinking about identity in their work are, some of them, pretty fucking scared, and tired. I think it’s more work to find your ground, to find your feet under you when you’re feeling that way. On the other side of things, I know a lot of people who are like, “I’m not going to care about all that, I’m just going to thrive.” And that feels like it’s important right now, to say, “I’m going to be more bold, because nobody’s sanctioning what I do anyway.” So, I don’t know how that’s necessarily playing out aesthetically.

Ovidio: I don’t have the answer for this one…

Kristin: That’s fine I think. I think maybe we have yet to see what it’s doing aesthetically. It feels like, I mean I could come up with what I think it would be doing, but I don’t know if that’s right, so. Design is so diverse anyway. It’s like asking what is the trend right now. 

Ovidio: It depends what you’re designing for. That’s the trend for that.

Kristin: Totally. Um, ooh, this is a good question…

“I still have a little bit of imposter syndrome with it, but it definitely made me a better advocate for my own work and I’m still really good at critique”

What are three things in your life that have made you who you are, or led you to where you are? 

Kristin:Oh gosh, that’s big.

Ovidio: Obviously, one would be my culture. My parents speak Mayan. They didn’t learn how to speak Spanish until they were here for two to three years. And then, they speak English here and there. They can have a small conversation, they understand English, but me growing up, I spoke Mayan and I understood Mayan, and I didn’t learn how to speak Spanish until I was in high school. My English has always been on and off, so sometimes I know what I’m saying, sometimes I think it right, but I have to slow down. And sometimes in Spanish you speak really fast, so understanding how to slow down and do that. But yeah, just my background has influenced me to design things from my culture. 

And then other thing is the area I grew up in has changed over time—the Alberta Street in Portland. But back then, it was very diverse too. So having that, and just being thankful for having that, and learning what it was to have different neighbors with different backgrounds, and being open to talking to anybody, not being afraid to talk to anybody for color of your skin or what you’re going to say. Just having an open mind for that.

The other one would be I went to a polytechnic school, Benson High School. It’s located in Portland, and they have automotive and multimedia and different majors there, so that’s where I found my interest in multi-media. But I did major in automotive at first, but it wasn’t my thing, so I went back and double-majored in multimedia and I figured out I could make a photo-book or a calendar, and all of that. So making small things, and just leading up to bigger stuff. That’s helped me, and has led me to where I am right now.

Kristin: Your last example reminds me of one of the things that was formative for me. At my high school, we had a similar part of the school. It was a public high school, but we had a whole department that was rooted in mechanical drawing and drafting, and automotive. At the time I went there, a lot of kids thought of it as the part of the school that was for students who weren’t going to go to college. It was more like vocational training. 

I had been ahead in math when I was younger, and then when I got to high school, suddenly, I wasn’t the best one at it anymore. I was really not good at it. I was really not good at geometry.

Ovidio: Me either.

Kristin: I think my brain just wasn’t ready for it yet. It’s funny that I’m a designer now.

Ovidio: I got a D in geometry. And that’s ok, because I still got credit for it.

Kristin: Yes, this is the self talk I have with myself too. I almost failed, but I was ahead enough that I didn’t have to keep going with it. I ended up dropping the college track with my math classes, and I ended up taking mechanical drawing and architectural drawing instead of more advanced math classes. And I’m so glad I had that opportunity because it helped me to understand the math I was trying to do and failing at so much better, and I don’t think I realized how many skills I had spatially. I love making die-lines and making physical things. I feel like I’m able to see closed dimensions on a flat thing because I started in these classes. It was really formative training for me. And also, I was one of two women in the class—there were a bunch of dudes and they were, for the most part, really great to me. I had a teacher who was not always really great to me. He was a football coach and was always kind of like, oh you girls are doing this thing—a little bit demeaning. But I felt really fighty with him, and he actually ended up writing some of my college recommendations after that. I thought about architecture for a long time, and like you, I was like oh, maybe I’m not going to go into that, I’m going to do something else, but it was really formative. I don’t think I would be a designer without it, so that was big.

My parents were both musicians. My mom was a concert pianist and college teacher, and my dad was an orchestra director, and so I learned to read music when I learned to read, basically. And so, it was kind of like learning another language and your brain kind of expands. 

Ovidio: On my free time, I play piano, I like piano. I only read a little bit, but like you say, it is a different language. 

Kristin: The spacial relationship with music, especially with piano, you see all these things at the same time, and if you play with other musicians, you have another sense that you’re using to know how to play with other people. I think that affects everything I do. I think my sense of rhythm and even work patterns, and how you need to rest, and then have spurts of real productivity, that comes from music.

And then maybe the third really formative thing for me is, I actually didn’t go to school for design. I majored in creative writing and studio art, and so I learned how to write and talk about my work, which is so imperative. It made my first few years in design really really hard, but I was a smart kid and things weren’t always that hard for me, and having to work for it like that was kind of good for me. I still have a little bit of imposter syndrome with it, but it definitely made me a better advocate for my own work and I’m still really good at critique. Design can be personal, but it doesn’t feel like I’m taking it personally when I get feedback.

Ovidio: Yeah, it’s always good to have an open mind, and critique is there to push you. Because when you see the same design over and over again, your eye gets tired and you don’t see the mistakes that you accidentally may have done, so there’s an extra pair of eyes that are helping you and giving you feedback.

Kristin: Yeah. Well, I think those are the three. There’s a lot. I mean working at Bitch was immensely formative for me, even later in my career, just because learning how to elevate other people voices (or get out of the way) and really help people who are leaders but just not leading yet, whether it’s illustrators or designers newer to the field, was amazing. I think it’s made me a better teacher. That’s an extra bonus thing. 

We made it through the questions! Do you have anything else to add?

Ovidio: Well I’ve heard your process and the steps you’ve taken, and it’s all great and interesting. At the moment, I don’t have another question.

Kristin: I don’t have any either. I think this was fun!

Ovidio: Yeah, it was fun!

“That’s a question I ask myself—I’m a student, how much can I do?”